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I Met God — God Without Religion, Scripture, or Faith
A Book by J. Neil Schulman
Chapter 7: Revelations


BRAD LINAWEAVER: Do you remember the 1988 event, the hand on the heart event and the dream with the female God figure, do you remember them now from the God point of view and remember Neil as a different party during those events?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Yes. In other words, Neil Schulman has been a separate personality who’s been invented to hide from me as God who I really am. And I’m seeing that it is a separate being but one who is invented. It’s my cover story to prevent me from knowing myself so I can acclimatize myself to the situation.

There’s also something else and this also relates to one of the reasons why I take the existence of Jesus seriously, is that somewhere in the back of my mind is some sort of memory of having done this before. I don’t remember the time or the place but I know I have been here doing this before. Now I don’t know whether it’s as Jesus or somebody else but I recall: I have done this before I have done this journey where I enter into the body and reveal myself to myself before.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: But it’s vague?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Yes. I don’t have full memory of what’s going on but there are certain things that I’m able to do.

Now, I tell Dafydd, “You know what? I’m okay here. I’m not going back to bed. Why don’t you go home?”

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Even though you’ve not slept?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Even though I’ve not slept. I don’t need to sleep at this point, okay. I have a higher level of energy than I have ever had in my entire life. The idea that I would need to sleep is irrelevant. I’m not feeling tired. I’m feeling at the highest energy level I’ve ever been.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: You’ve been awake how many days?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: I’ve probably been awake, at this point, for probably 30 hours. But I’m in another space. I tell Dafydd, “You can go home. You’re okay to go.”

I turn on the TV and I’m watching the news. And I find that the people on TV, I have the same ability to look at them as I did with Dafydd. The fact that they’re on TV doesn’t restrict me, I could look at them and I have this same four-dimensional view of their souls and looking and seeing who and what they are, that I had with Dafydd in person.

Now, I’m going to do something a little out of sequence here. Dennis Prager, years later, talking about how we know God is God, on one of his radio programs, says that what distinguishes God from everything else is that only God has the power to look inside the soul.

Now, from Dennis’s standpoint, the fact that I’m able to look into people’s souls while this is going on, Dennis — even though he would probably disagree with the conclusion — by his logic, I am really God during that period. Because I had that power of God that only God has.

And here’s something else, people constantly ask me “How do you know that it wasn’t a demon pretending to be God?”

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Actually, I was going to ask you that, but you already asked yourself.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Right. And the answer is: because I know who I am. I know myself, and I know my own identity, and my own identity while this is going on is: I am God. There’s no question about it. It’s not somebody fooling me, or something like that. You know who you are. You know you’re Brad Linaweaver, I know I’m Neil Schulman. While this was going on I knew I was God. That’s who I was.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: So it’s not you were on the receiving end of the entity. You are the entity. And when people ask that question, they could more legitimately ask in 1988 — the hand-on-your-heart experience — they could ask, “Was that a demon?” Or they might ask the woman in the dream you thought was God, they might ask, “Was that a demon?” But the reason this is not the right question to ask about this event, which you call the Mind Meld, is precisely because you are not at this point on the receiving end. You are the entity yourself, there’s the difference. Is that right?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Yes, that’s correct.

Now, I am observing people all day long. Every single person I’m seeing I am in essence having this God’s eye view, this cognitive penetration beyond the skin, being able to go beyond the shell. I’m starting to see people almost like fish swimming in an ocean and the fish imagery is very important because that, of course, is something, which is very central to the imagery in Christianity. But in essence, because I am seeing people not just as the physical flesh anymore, but I am seeing them as this four-dimensional event — with the present thick right here and then becoming thin at the two ends as it sort of like goes around this curve — from this odd angle that I’m at looking at them. People look to me almost like, it’s almost like this emanation around them is like fish swimming. That’s the impression I’m getting when I’m wrapping around and able to look at their past and their future.

A couple of people I saw on TV, three of them I remember seeing on TV; one of them was President Clinton, one of them was Dick Gephart, and a third one on a talk show was Gordon Liddy

And I’m going to go in a different order. Dick Gephart I simply got the impression of, here is a man who is not being honest with himself. I got a sense of somebody who is not really fundamentally being honest with himself. That he’s hiding something important from himself. It’s like he’s putting on a mask to prevent him from knowing who he is.

Gordon Liddy I’m seeing on a talk show and he’s trying to make jokes and they’re falling flat on the audience and I realize that he’s talking over their heads, that he’s far too intelligent for the audience he’s trying to tell these jokes to. What I’m getting off of him is the severe sense of regret of an ex-military officer and an ex FBI man –

BRAD LINAWEAVER: –reduced to this.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: — reduced to this. The thought which comes across most strongly looking at him, and sensing this, is, “What I would give for one more mission where I could make a real difference.” Now I later found out that he wrote a novel with somebody in that situation as the premise of it. But I didn’t know that then, so I take that as almost like a validation of what I was seeing.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: What about Clinton?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Clinton? I had been extremely hostile toward Clinton before this, because of all his support for anti-Second-Amendment gun control. And I got such a burst of warmth in looking at him because this is what I saw.

I saw him alone in his bedroom — walking into his bedroom at night — and a Secret Service man saying to him “Good night, Mr. President.” And he goes in there and he feels that he is at the center of the world with this gap of loneliness around him, alone in this bedroom, as he walks in for the first time. With the entire world around him and he feels the weight of it and he’s thinking, “How did I ever get here where I have all this responsibility? I thought I was just playing this cute game of running for office and I would get all this benefits and be able to do all these neat things. Here, I find here, with this weight on me and I’m all alone and there’s really nobody who I can ask and share this with. That this is such a responsibility and there’s no way I can share it with anybody.”

And I got the most immense sense of responsibility and loneliness of a man who saw himself as a con man and now he says, “What have I gotten myself into?” and he feels the responsibility of what he’s gotten himself into. That was what I perceived from him.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: And you never had anything remotely like that as a thought or a feeling about Clinton before?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Correct. Before I simply hated him.

Okay. Now, later that day, Randy and I went to the meeting with the lawyer in Beverly Hills and there was really nothing dramatic that happened there. But it was just the same sort of internal thing going on, while externally I was still being the J. Neil Schulman. I was not telling anybody what was going on inside me.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: You never told Dafydd?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: I never told Dafydd. I never told Randy. I wasn’t telling anybody.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Until later?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Until much, much later. Because it was like J. Neil Schulman was going to be my secret identity. In other words I wasn’t going to reveal myself, but this was what was going on inside. And so we went to this meeting and this other lawyer was there, who knew Gil Garcetti and had that meeting then.

Later that evening I went home, and probably around maybe eight o’clock that night, suddenly I had the feeling of withdrawal. That suddenly there was a separation again, and suddenly — as shockingly to me as it had begun — it was over again, and I was just Neil Schulman again. That was as surprising to me as when it started. Because it was shocking to me when the identity change happened and then again it was just as shocking to me when, only few hours later, it ended again. Because I thought that this was the new situation. I had no idea that it was going to stop.

Now, during that day, a number of different thoughts came to me and it’s hard for me to even keep an inventory about them.

But for example, when I thought about race and blacks — African Americans — the thought came to me immediately, “Magnificent destiny. These people have a magnificent destiny.” I didn’t know exactly what in the future, or how far in the future, but I knew that even speaking in terms of race — which is, by the way, alien to me, since I’m a thorough individualist — that there was something about the African Americans, that at some time in the future they were going to do something which was going to be glorious. And all the suffering that they’ve gone through was going to have meaning.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Did you think about any other “races” during this period?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: No. It was basically just catch as catch can. There was no organization to it. First of all I felt no pressure for time because I didn’t know that the experience was going to come to an end. I thought it was an ongoing sort of thing.

I also had, during this period, thoughts about churches, and one of the things that came to was the idea that churches are so dull and boring and ritualistic and they’re not fun. They should be a place that everybody wants to go because they’re so enjoyable, rather than dry and dusty and ritualistic and authoritarian. And the specific thought, during this period, that came out, was that it would be the sort of place that a child would say to his parents, “I have my homework done. Can we go to church, now?”

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Yeah. I got that. Excellent.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: And that all the top acts would be dying to play in church.

So it was just little things, all the way through.

And, of course, during this period, God was aware that I was writing the novel on Escape from Heaven, and He gave me the joke, “I’m your biggest fan.”

And very little of the novel had been written at that point. It was probably either a chapter, or less than a chapter, at that point.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: But you’re saying that God gave you your best gag?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Gave me my best gag, right.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: One serious question about this period of the experience. Did you at any point, even for a few seconds, in the God mind, think about the Arabs and Jews?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: No.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Interesting. I wonder why that is?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Because I was focusing on things around me, things that were coming into my view. First of all, it was a busy day with everything that was going on, and so it was like everything was speeded up and that there was an awful lot going on. But it wasn’t organized in any sense. It felt like the beginning to me of a much longer process.

Now, later that night, one of the first things I did, after this happened, was I went to the computer and I wrote the poem which is titled “A Revelation,” which appears on the frontispiece both of The Frame of the Century? and then I later put it as the frontispiece of Escape from Heaven. That poem was my first attempt, now that it was over — even though it had only ended a few seconds or few minutes before — to memorialize it.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: The next question of import I’m going to put to you, in fact it’s the only important question I have left for the rest of this book, is attitudes, opinions feelings, that are in any way different after –

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Oh, yes! Something crucial that I did leave out, you just reminded me! And this is absolutely crucial, because this is the core of the “revelation.” How could I have left this out? Thank you Brad, thank you!

The core thing that came to me during this experience, while it was going on, was that I got a sense of how God’s mind works, because I was inside of it. And what I saw, first of all, was that I had always thought of God looking out universally and seeing everything going on at the same time and just sucking everything in, and then He just does a little something here and a little something there, and it’s like this all encompassing warm cloud.

That was not what I was getting. What I was getting was a direct focus. That God focused on one particular task at a time, just like we do. Now, He was seeing it in four dimensions, because I was seeing it in four dimensions, okay? I was seeing an event cycle when I looked at a person, this four-dimensional, beginning and an end, sideways sort of view, in the God-mind perceiving this. But it was focusing on one thing at a time. God acted specifically. He focused on a task then He would do whatever He needed to do there and then He would go on to something else. It wasn’t like He was doing everything at the same time. And that was one of the things that changed my concept of God, that He was an actor.

Something else, and the main thing that was conveyed to me during this experience was how utterly powerless God felt about what was going on here, about the planet. That the free will that operated in every single person was real, and that the choices that everybody makes have real consequences, so much so that God, He could invite, He could try to persuade, He could try to sweet talk, all of these sorts of things, but ultimately He was powerless to impel what was going to happen from our choices. He could try to convince us, just like a parent talking to a child. But ultimately He had to let what was going to happen happen by itself and He was thrilled when we made the right choice — I could feel the joy when He observed something happening where somebody made the right choice at the point where the moral choice needed to be made — and it was like this lonely disappointment when somebody didn’t. That was the core of this, this feeling of and again during this entire period… People are always talking about the cliché “God is Love, okay?”

BRAD LINAWEAVER: I thought that was only part of it…

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Right but everybody says, “God is Love.” What I was experiencing during this was a benevolent outlook that I had not felt since I was a small child.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: But is that necessarily the same as love?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Well, I’m not even going to try to parse the word right now. Words are inadequate to describe what was going on. That’s something that I cannot emphasize enough. That the verbal forms that we use are entirely inadequate to describe what I was experiencing, but I have to try and the label doesn’t matter here. Let me just try to get it out, okay? That’s what I’m here for right now is to try to document this. To try to go from the experience of what was going on to get it into words to communicate to other people.

This warmth, this benevolence, this jolly sense of humor, this feeling of caring, you could trivialize it with some cynical statement about warm and fuzzy or something like that…

BRAD LINAWEAVER: No I like benevolence because that’s actually a more descriptive term than love, but does the benevolent warm feeling apply to all humanity or only certain select groups and select individuals?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: It was not an angry, critical God. He wasn’t looking out and being angry at everything that’s going on. It’s not this stern looking around and, “Boy, this is terrible!” Its not like George Burns in the Oh God! movies saying, “You’re polluting my oceans! See if you can make a mackerel!” It was none of that. Okay…

BRAD LINAWEAVER: That’s why I’m asking…

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: It was none of that. It was looking around and it was the feeling of either thrill when He saw what we were doing right, and just this forlorn despair when He saw somebody who at the point when they had to make a correct choice failed to make it.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Well, hold that thought for about three seconds while I ask this question.

God being full of joy when we make a right decision and God being sad or frustrated when we make a wrong decision, the way a parent might feel about a child?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Yes.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Then what I want to ask — I am stuck with words so you’ve got to give me a chance to express the question in words, because I don’t know how to ask the question in any other way then with words. Is it fair to say that the impression you have from, and of, the God mind, is regarding human conflicts, God does not take sides?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: That far too abstract and intellectualized and removed for me to respond to, from the standpoint of the experience that I was having.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Then let me phrase it…

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: But let me…

BRAD LINAWEAVER: I was going to try again, but all right.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Try again, but let me complete this one more thought that’s coming out here. Okay? Again, you’re drawing me out, and it’s starting to bubble up.

The first thing that I experienced early on in the experience was the sense of benevolence about my life up to that point. In other words, I’m a very hypercritical person. I was always looking at my failures, the things that I considered wrong about myself. They all seemed unimportant while this was going on. It was like, “Well, that is so unimportant, these flaws that you’ve experienced, as compared to the important things.” In other words, I got such a sense of approval. I was experiencing a self-approval. But I don’t think that I have ever had such a feeling of self-acceptance, at that moment. So it was acceptance of myself, acceptance of everybody around me, feeling that it wasn’t going to be a tragedy. The mission as it was going to unfold was not going to have to be this violent tragedy that you see in The Passion of the Christ, where you’re nailed up on a cross. That this time, it was going to be different. The mission was going to be more fun this time and not like the last time. Okay, now I think I’ve probably characterized the essentials of it as much as I can.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Is the “God” idea that God has an idea of what is good and evil, in terms of choices, but does not view human beings as good or evil on the basis of the choice, but views the choice as good or evil? I hope I phrased that very precisely.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: This is what I was experiencing precisely. What I was looking out and looking for when I looked into somebody was: what was their most important central heartfelt desire? What was pulling them along? What were they desiring? Were they desiring to be good or were they desiring something else, and being good was unimportant? That was what I was experiencing.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Well, let me narrow it down. Does God think Arabs are evil?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Brad, you’re trying to impose upon my interpretation of the experience into something…

BRAD LINAWEAVER: I’m just trying to figure out if God loves all humanity or not, that’s all I’m asking. You brought up love.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: I wasn’t experiencing it that way. It wasn’t like this global, United Nations sort of thing, Brad. Maybe that’s where I’m having my greatest difficulty conveying this. It wasn’t like that. I wasn’t thinking in terms of Arabs and Jews. Briefly, for a moment, I was thinking in terms of blacks — and just got the thought of a magnificent destiny — but that was only because that sort of drifted into my consciousness because I was working on the O.J. Simpson thing.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Before I drop this, the only reason I’m asking is you once asked Dennis Prager, if he met God, what he would ask God, and Dennis Prager didn’t have much of an answer. You were being very precise, asking Dennis Prager what Prager might ask God about Himself.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Right. That was what I was asking, what Prager would ask God about Himself.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: But still, if you asked somebody a question about himself it could involve opinions about others. If somebody asks Brad Linaweaver a question about Brad Lineaweaver, himself, it could actually touch on opinions Brad might have about…

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: I was getting some opinions, okay? I saw that God thought the churches were dull and should be fun. I was experiencing that God looked well upon libertarian writings and natural law, and He looked and saw that that was good. Okay? And I saw His view of how He views us as, what is our most heartfelt desire? In other words that was what He was looking at. Almost everything seems unimportant to Him other than what was in our heart to do. What was compelling us? Were we drawn to be good, and was that important to us? Did we feel that it was important to make a right choice or that we can simply blow off making the right choice for something else? Okay? That is what I was experiencing, and in terms of Arabs and Jews, or something like that, He wasn’t looking at it in terms of some sort of collective conflict or something like that. He would simply, maybe, be thinking, if He saw a specific action, maybe the point at which a terrorist has to decide whether to execute a hostage or something like that. What is in his heart at that moment? Is there empathy for this person who is in his charge, or something like that? That’s how God would view it. “Terrorist, what is in your heart? What do you want to make of yourself?” That is how He would view it.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Well, I’ll wrap up this sequence of questions by merely saying the people who read this book may wonder, if they had God’s mind, or access to God, what they might ask or wonder. You can deal with it as you wish.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: All I can say is that Neil Schulman wasn’t phrasing it in terms of questions of God while the experience was going on because Neil Schulman was somewhere off away while this was going on. It was being recorded in Neil Schulman for later use, but the experience itself, I was not Neil Schulman thinking about what questions do I want to ask God. And if it happened to you, you wouldn’t be Brad Linaweaver thinking of what questions you want to ask God because you wouldn’t be Brad Lineaweaver during the experience. You would be God.

If what God was concerned about about each of us was our heart-most desire to do good and evil, and what we’ve become because of it? Then how is that not answering your question, that what He is concerned about is right choices?

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Because there’s an emotional component missing in that answer of are we God’s children or not?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Brad, if during this experience I’d come across Adolf Hitler and looked into his soul…

BRAD LINAWEAVER: — or Genghis Khan or Jack the Ripper….

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: — or Joseph Stalin or Jack the Ripper or anybody like that, then I would know the answer to that question, and be able to give you the visceral and emotional reaction that you’re asking for. All I can say is the experience, as it was happening, was too short. I had too many other things going on, and I wasn’t going out looking for it.

I was not fully revealed to myself. In other words, there were still things that were just a taste of what was going on.

Now, you and I have talked about this previously, but not during this tape series that we’re doing right here, about an opinion that I expressed to you. Remember that I started out this section talking about Jesus, after His baptism, going into the desert for 40 days and then coming back. And then, according to the first three of the Gospels — not John, John is an exception to this.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: You talking about the ketosis?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Right. Jesus does not perform His first miracle until He gets back from the desert.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: That is correct.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: And what I have expressed to you is that what happened to me was just a taste of the experience Jesus had and He had it for far longer, and far deeper, and was therefore able to deal with it over a much longer period and at a much more intense level. Getting to the point that He was able to effect miracles. I didn’t do any miracles during those eight hours.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: But you had a taste of it?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: I had a taste.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: That’s got to count for something.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Right. So what I am saying is that I had an experience akin to what the descriptions of what Jesus…

You see, we don’t have a Gospel According to Jesus. We only have the accounts written by the people around Him.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: True.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Okay? And so I don’t recall that anybody ever asked Jesus what was going on inside Him.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: No, Jesus was not interviewed by Larry King.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: No. It didn’t occur to any of them to ask Him the sorts of questions that you’re asking me, and the answers would be fascinating, wouldn’t they?

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Well, if you put me in front of Jesus Christ I would ask these questions.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Right. Of course, and so would I.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: My questions is this, because I’ve been meaning to bring this up through the entire interview, I never have.

Thomas Jefferson is, I think, one of the most libertarian of all the founding fathers, and although he only related to Jesus Christ in terms of His moral teaching, and tried to reject all the really important God aspects, from my point of view, he still argued that what Jesus was preaching was benevolent and sublime. I like that phrase, he says what Jesus brought to the world in terms of His teachings was benevolent and sublime and, he says, clearly preferable to all the ancient philosophers.

So, and this is always the problem I had when I was a Christian and when I lost my faith the problem remained with me, and remains with me to this day.

When Jesus Christ said to forgive your enemies, I’ve never fully been able to understand that. Whether I was in faith or out of faith, and since you’ve had this Mind Meld, I want at least to address that before we move on. This is the last Jesus Christ question I will ask in this interview.

Did you get any feeling or sense of what that really, truly means?

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: Yes.

BRAD LINAWEAVER: Then please explain it.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN: During the experience, I was taken out of myself. I was seeing Joseph Neil Schulman, to use my full name here — the little boy who had been Joseph, who at age 16 decided to use his middle name — from the outside, and looked upon him as somebody else.

I think that, at the point of God’s Judgment, we will be taken out of ourselves and be able to look at ourselves from God’s point of view.

We will be given His eyes to look at ourselves — all of us, not just me — for this period. That was just a special foreshadowing, or something like that, for whatever job I have to do here.

But I think everybody gets that, where you are taken out of yourself and you look at yourself as if you’re judging somebody else. I think that what Jesus was saying there, about loving your enemy as yourself, it means that, at some point, you need to apply the same level of criticism for your enemy as you would apply to yourself. The exact same sorts of excuses and rationalizations and reasoning that you would use to justify yourself, you have to apply to your enemy as well.

That’s what I think.


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Next in I Met God — God Without Religion, Scripture, or Faith is Chapter VIII: Aftermath

I Met God — God Without Religion, Scripture, or Faith is
Copyright © 2010 The J. Neil Schulman Living Trust. All rights reserved.


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